Mark: Hi, it's Mark Bossert. I'm here with Bernie Pawlik, Pawlik Automotive in Vancouver, BC Canada. Vancouver's best auto service experience, and we are talking cars. How you doing Bernie?
Bernie: Doing very well.
Mark: So today's guest is a 2012 Land Rover LR4. What was going on with this vehicle?
Bernie: This vehicle came to our shop. The engine was making some noises and the check engine light was on, so we proceeded to do some diagnostics.
Mark: Is this a fairly regular kind of, or do you see a lot of these, I guess is the great question.
Bernie: We do. Noisy engines are an issue with a lot of Land Rover products. Not obviously when you buy brand new, but develops over time. Check engine lights are another thing of course, we fix a lot of.
Mark: And do you remember what kind of mileage this or kilometre is?
Bernie: Yes. This one was up there a fair bit, about 175,000 kilometres. So it's got a fair bit of use on it.
Mark: And so once you did some checking, how did the diagnosis go?
Bernie: So first thing we found were some trouble codes related to engine valve timing. And it was pretty clear that you could hear the timing chain rattling, which was not a good sign. But the codes were such that we figured there was a procedure we could do where we could do a hot oil flush on the engine, because we figured that the engine oil was old and dirty. Maybe hadn't been changed often enough. And that was the first procedure we did.
So we did a hot oil flush. Basically what that involves is adding a chemical to the engine oil, running it for a little while, and that softens up some of the sludgy deposits inside the engine. We hadn't taken it apart, so we didn't know, but assuming there were some, cleaned that out. We did an oil change and that actually solved the code issue. But the rattle, and the rattle was reduced, but it was still there. And you know, definitely warranted doing some work on the timing chain.
So this is basically you're trying to save the customer some money with finding out what the exact problem is. Which is a process. You gotta go through all these different steps. Might seem like you're wasting money. Why didn't you just take it apart in the first place?
Although, you know, thinking about an oil change, it's not all that expensive of a thing to do. I mean, the hot oil flush adds a bit of cost and it is a Land Rover, you use a synthetic oil, it's quite a large quantity of oil. So it's not a cheap oil change, but it's you know, nonetheless, comparatively speaking, compared to a timing chain replacement, it's much cheaper.
Mark: So let's go to some pictures here. Here's an issue.
Bernie: Yeah. So here we're looking at the right cylinder bank. We're looking at the valve cover removed and the front timing cover removed. And this is the old timing chain. Those are the cam sprockets on the front and you can see some dark brown areas there, that's sort of still present stuck onto various parts in the engine.
Mark: Here's a little video.
Bernie: Yeah. So that should not be happening. You should not be able to move the timing chain like that. When it's in good condition, the timing chain is tight in all positions all the way around the engine. We're just looking at the right cylinder bank because there's two timing chains. The left bank is the same thing. It was worn and loose.
Mark: So basically when you open it up and you see this sort of browning of parts. Can you explain what these brown nodules are?
Bernie: Yeah. Those are bolts that hold the camshaft gear onto the camshaft. The procedure to change these, we have a lot of special tools to do this job. Like as with almost any car where you do a timing chain nowadays, you need special tools to lock off the camshafts and the crankshaft in a certain position. Nothing has keyways anymore. So you have to lock off everything in the right spots and then you can remove the bolts for the camshafts and change everything. Those three are bolts.
Mark: So why is this, cams I don't remember them looking like this when I was looking at car engines. Like what is all this big round stuff here?
Bernie: Yeah, so you'll notice that those have little cutouts in them. Like there's a small. It's a round piece, but it's got sort of notches in it. I'm not talking about in the centre near the bolts, but I'm talking about the outside, the outer part. There's a notch there. There's a notch there, and then there's a big section that's not notched and you can see it in both those gears.
Mark: Right.
Bernie: And so there are sensors and as these spin by the sensors, they can tell the position of the camshaft. That sends a signal to the computer, then it can readjust the camshaft position. Basically that information is relayed to the computer. So it's critical that these things are all timed and put in the right position. I've done timing chain jobs where I actually have put stuff in one tooth out and, you know, immediately you gotta check engine light on and you gotta take it all apart again and fix it, which is not fun. So it's very important to do it right the first time. But, anyways these things are critical. Like everything has to be lined up exactly in the right spot. And then all the computer operated actuators, they can all do their thing.
Mark: And that's all in aid of changing how much the, like this is variable valve timing. And what else?
Bernie: Yeah, it's variable valve timing. That's what this is. So when an engine's idling, having the valves open at a certain position is best for, you know, fuel, mileage, performance, emissions. And you know, when you accelerate or you're going at a higher speed, changing that valve timing really makes a difference to engine performance.
That's why modern engines have so much horsepower that you would never get on an engine similarly back like 30 years ago or back in the days of the American muscle car when you have huge displacement and lots of power. Nowadays you can have an engine that's half the size and it'll perform way better.
Mark: So this gives us an idea if we follow the track of this chain and multiples. Yeah. This going all over the place.
Bernie: Yeah. There are actually three timing chains. The other one drives the oil pump in the bottom of the engine and we rarely ever replace that. Nothing seems to go wrong with that chain. But yeah, the upper two chains are the ones that wear, the guides wear, the tensioners wear out. They didn't use the best tensioners in the early years of these engines. Around 2010 I believe they had a tensioner that wasn't very robust and they would cause problems at quite an early age. I assume this engine's never had the timing chain done.
But we've done a lot where it doesn't even have a hundred thousand kilometres on it, and that's mostly the supercharged engines because they're just, you know, a lot more power, there's more stress on the timing chains.
Mark: And so when we're looking at this, what are we seeing here?
Bernie: So this is the front cover that goes onto the front of the camshaft covers we're looking at. And if you see those two round discs, there's one on the left, one on the right. They're kind of covered in sludge. Those are the actual actuators that set the variable valve timing. If you look in the middle of those, there's kind of a round circle and we can look at the cam gear in a minute after that. But just remember that round circle there that you've marked out. Those actually go to the camshaft gears, they touch the camshaft gears and they'll change the oil pressure and that'll change the valve timing. But this sludge here is very indicative of bad maintenance.
I mean, this engine is old. It, it's had a lot of mileage on it, but you know, years of perhaps not changing the oil as often as it should have been changed. That's what causes that sludge buildup. And so that can cause a whole bunch of problems, which we were actually able to alleviate by doing a hot engine oil flush on this particular engine. So the key is, you know, we talk about a lot, change your oil more than the manufacturer recommends.
Mark: So this is where those.
Bernie: Yeah, that's exactly where that actuator basically connects to. And that will change the oil pressure. These variable valve timing gears work on engine oil pressure. So that'll change the oil pressure inside the gear and it'll do it very fast, you know, fractions of a second, while the engine's running. So again, you see they're very small passageways. Clean oil is just so critical for the operation of these things.
Mark: So what could the owner have done to prevent this or get more mileage out of the vehicle?
Bernie: Well, obviously changing the oil more frequently is a good thing to do. And of course, at this stage of the game, you know, there's not much you can do other than you know, change the oil perhaps a little more frequently going forward. And we'd recommend it after finishing the job to come back in about a month and do another hot oil flush on it, and then just go back to normal maintenance. Which we think would be a good thing to just remove any extra excess sludge out of the engine.
Mark: An expensive repair?
Bernie: Yeah. Very expensive. Yeah. They're ouchie repairs, ouchie on the wallet. You know, in all fairness, I mean, we've done a lot of these. Timing chains are not the most robust design, and they tend to have problems. We've done a few podcasts on these, I believe. If not, a lot of them have slipped by our podcasting fingers. Can't talk about the same thing every week or month, you know.
Mark: Sure in the net of it, is a timing chain still a better solution than a timing belt?
Bernie: You know, I wonder about that. I kind of debate it. A timing belt is a planned maintenance item, and they don't really fail much nowadays unless you go way beyond the recommended interval. I mean, I'm thinking like Subarus for instance, which we work a lot of, they recommended a timing belt replacement at 170,000 kilometres. You know, I've seen them with much higher mileage on them, and the belt still looks like it would last forever. But I would recommend doing it at the interval or sooner. It's always better to be safe. Because if it breaks, there's a problem.
But, you know, that's just an example. They're very robust and if you do the job, there's a certain fixed cost, it's done and away you go. With the timing chain, it's kind of unpredictable, you know, it might last forever, but it may also fail. And they do fail frequently on a lot of engines. And it costs a lot more money to do a timing chain.
Mark: So what's the result? If you know, big deal, the chain's a little sloppy. What's the net result of that if you just left it?
Bernie: Well, what'll happen is the chain will start flopping around, and then the timing gears can skip teeth. And then when that happens, of course, then the engine runs really poorly.
We had one customer with a supercharged Range Rover and we'd looked at it, the timing chain was noisy, he decided not to do anything with it, and finally limped it in when the engine was barely running. It had skipped a couple of teeth and there's some oil jets at the bottom of the engine. They spray oil on the chains for lubrication. And that was all bent because the chains had been flopping around so much. I mean, the additional cost was minimal, but he was like, really moments away from the chain actually, like something catastrophic happening. The end result is if it starts getting really bad, pistons and valves will collide and it'll be catastrophic engine damage.
Mark: In other words, you need a new engine and it's probably $50,000 or something?
Bernie: Well, it'll be less than that, but like if you got lucky and we could get a decent used engine. You might, we're talking Canadian prices. We might get away with 15,000. And if you're going with new, it'd probably be like 30. These vehicles are very valuable when they're brand new, but they depreciate very heavily.
Mark So there you go. If you're having any kind of timing chain issues, if the check engine light's on your Land Rover, Range Rover product in Vancouver, BC Canada, the people to see are Pawlik Automotive. They're experts. They do lots of these every month. Literally. You can reach them online at pawlikautomotive.com. Or you can call them at (604) 327-7112 to book your appointment. You have to call ahead. You have to book online ahead of time. They're always busy. Pawlik Automotive in Vancouver, BC Canada. Thanks so much for watching and listening. Thanks Bernie.
Bernie: Thank you, Mark. Thanks for watching.
Bernie: Yeah. Those are bolts that hold the camshaft gear onto the camshaft. The procedure to
